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Copper Contributor
BigDaddyTees
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎03-01-2009
Device: Wireless Router
Plan: Internet/TV/Phone
Location: New Jersey
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Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?

A couple of weeks ago, I purchased a 32 Inch Sony Bravia 720p but yet 1080p compatible HDTV. I know my TV is capable of receiving 1080p signals as most HDTV’s are in the modern era. However, Fios via the HD DVR only broadcast up to a 1080I signal. My question is this, is there anyway to get a 1080p signal from Fios or will 1080I have to be settled for? What I mean is under video options on the set top box the options are 480I, 480P, 720P and 1080I there is no 1080P option.

Silver Contributor IV
matcarl
Posts: 1,426
Registered: ‎08-05-2008
Location: New York
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Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?

No one is broadcasting in 1080p therefore no provider is offering it.
Gold Contributor III
Keyboards
Posts: 2,286
Registered: ‎08-05-2008
Plan: Extreme HD DV /50/25
Location: SE Pennsylvania
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Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?

The simple answer is no for 1080p.  The Motorola hardware does not support it and as Matcarl said, there is presently no 1080p content being broadcast (Dish is doing a 1080p VOD which is actually an IP download to their newest custom STB).  If you truly want 1080p then you will have to go to B-Ray disc.
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Silver Contributor IV
TimSykes
Posts: 1,059
Registered: ‎10-21-2008
Device: Google G1
Plan: 20/5
Location: New York
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Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?


Keyboards wrote:
The simple answer is no for 1080p.  The Motorola hardware does not support it and as Matcarl said, there is presently no 1080p content being broadcast (Dish is doing a 1080p VOD which is actually an IP download to their newest custom STB).  If you truly want 1080p then you will have to go to B-Ray disc.

To add to this. It will be a long time before 1080p is supported by any cable provideror, TV network, the bandwidth it takes to broadcast in 1080p is huge and it would bottleneck to cable infrastructure. We all want 1080p, but its just no feasible now.

SLE
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SLE
Posts: 1
Registered: ‎03-23-2009
Location: MAryland
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Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?

I guess this is why I'm getting such horrible artifact/pixilation on my screen during fast moving scenes. I have a Panasonic plasma. Verizon says they are just passing along what they receive from their sources (ABC,CBS, HBO, etc). When I play the same scenes via DVD, it's clear as a bell without the problem.

I find it very annoying and prevalent and not close to the "crystal clear" images that Verizon advertises. 

Gold Contributor III
Keyboards
Posts: 2,286
Registered: ‎08-05-2008
Plan: Extreme HD DV /50/25
Location: SE Pennsylvania
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Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?


SLE wrote:

I guess this is why I'm getting such horrible artifact/pixilation on my screen during fast moving scenes. I have a Panasonic plasma. Verizon says they are just passing along what they receive from their sources (ABC,CBS, HBO, etc). When I play the same scenes via DVD, it's clear as a bell without the problem.

I find it very annoying and prevalent and not close to the "crystal clear" images that Verizon advertises. 


Keep in mind that the maximum true resolution for DVD is 720p, even if your DVD player outputs at 1080i or 1080p.  That means there is considerably less detail in the original material than what is provided at 1080i by Verizon.  Also, some of the channels (both broadcast and cable) only send their signal at 720p requirng the STB to upconvert to 1080i (all the Disney channels [ABC, ESPN, etc.] and most if not all FOX channels).  If you have a QAM tuner in your set you can directly tune the local HD stations and they are only transmitted in 1080i.  No one is broadcasting 1080p at this time and Verizon is one of the few providers that does pass through the signal as received (without further compression).

 

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Copper Contributor
BigDaddyTees
Posts: 12
Registered: ‎03-01-2009
Device: Wireless Router
Plan: Internet/TV/Phone
Location: New Jersey
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Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?

I’m sort of glad I didn’t opt for a 1080p tv then as in my case it probably would have been a waste, aside from playing BLU ray disk/HD video games. I’m someone who mostly watches their tv and occasional does other things with it (see above.)
Silver Contributor II
KenAF
Posts: 585
Registered: ‎10-22-2008
Device: Blackberry 9630
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?


BigDaddyTees wrote:
I’m sort of glad I didn’t opt for a 1080p tv then as in my case it probably would have been a waste, aside from playing BLU ray disk/HD video games. I’m someone who mostly watches their tv and occasional does other things with it (see above.)


All channels are already distributed in compressed format (typically MPEG-2). Some cable providers pass the local HD channels as they receive them, but virtually all apply additional compression on the cable HD channels (i.e. they re-compress). Verizon FiOS is the only major provider does not recompress any of its HD channels to save bandwidth. FiOS does recompress a few [mostly premium] channels distributed in MPEG4 format, but only to redistribute them in MPEG2 for those without MPEG4-capable receivers.

 

Not all content providers allocate and equal bitrate to their HD channels.  Most channels are distributed via rented capacity on satellite, and that costs serious money, especially for content providers that supply mutiple HD channels.  More budget consious content providers may use lower bitrates, either to minimize satellite carriage costs and/or make their channels more enticing to cable providers that face severe bandwidth constraints.  If a particular cable provider is constrained for bandwidth, they may be willing to add a $10,000 in time and equipment to recompress TNTHD -- a channel many demand -- but they may not be as willing to do the same thing for a lesser watched channel like HGTV.  Cable channels like ESPN, TNT, USA, SciFi, Hdnet, MHD, and CNBC all distribute their channels at fairly high bitrates, while cable channels like HGTV, Discovery Channel, Animal Planet, and the Science Channel are distributed with significantly lower bitrates.

 

Local broadcasters (ex: ABC/FOX/CBS/NBC) all have 19.4Mbps available to work with, but that must be split between the main HD feed, any SD subchannels for traffic/weather/etc, and a limited amount of PSIP guide data. Some broadcast networks also sell a portion of their bandwidth to other companies for commercial datacast purposes.  These days, it's very rare to find a network affiliate that uses anything close to 19.4Mbps.  Most independently owned NBC and CBS affiliates dedicate just 12-14Mbps to their HD feed, with the rest used for weather / traffic / news subchannels.  A 12-14Mbps feed is generally sufficient to provide a high-quality picture on 1080p24 sourced content like movies and episodic series -- albeit with some added blurring on motion -- but is often inadequate to provide a high-quality picture on native 1080i60 video with lots of movement, such as sports.  Today, the best network picture is typically found on CBS owned-and-operated affiliates, as they all devote at least ~16.0Mbps to their HD feeds.

 

Less bandwith for the HD feed translates into higher compression.  Generally, the first thing compression equipment does is is filter [out] shadow detail.  This includes fine details that you might see in faces, hair, and clothes.  After that, compression equipment will reduce the amount of motion information in the picture signal, resulting in more blurring. Compression may also reduce the color gradations in certain parts of the image. When all this is inadequate for a certain scene to achieve the desired bitrate set by the cable company or broadcaster, you'll start to see more obvious defects like blocking and/or stutter (dropped frames). This is most common in motion scenes, which require significantly more bandwidth than static scenes.

 

In an ideal world, Verizon FiOS would obtain full-bandwidth 19.4Mbps feeds from each ABC/CBS/NBC affiliate, but that just isn't an option without buying thousands of dollars in new equipment for each affiliate.  Most local networks use equipment that allows them to output their commercially-integrated channel at one bitrate and one bitrate only, so Verizon is stuck with the same feed used OTA.  Perhaps one day, when Verizon makes the move to MPEG4, it will offer to buy new new encoders for CBS and NBC affiliates in major markets, to provide the absolutely best picture available [anywhere] on those channels.  We can dream. :smileyhappy:

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Silver Contributor II
KenAF
Posts: 585
Registered: ‎10-22-2008
Device: Blackberry 9630
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?

[ Edited ]

TimSykes wrote:

Keyboards wrote:
The simple answer is no for 1080p.  The Motorola hardware does not support it and as Matcarl said, there is presently no 1080p content being broadcast (Dish is doing a 1080p VOD which is actually an IP download to their newest custom STB).  If you truly want 1080p then you will have to go to B-Ray disc.

To add to this. It will be a long time before 1080p is supported by any cable provideror, TV network, the bandwidth it takes to broadcast in 1080p is huge and it would bottleneck to cable infrastructure. We all want 1080p, but its just no feasible now.


What you've stated above is a common misconception.  While a 1080p60 signal represents twice as much information, and would therefore require roughly twice as much bandwidth, the same is not true of 1080p24.

 

It takes significantly less bandwidth to send a 1080p24 signal than it does a 1080i60 signal.  In fact, most content providers take advantage of that fact today.  They take a 1080p24 source, split the 24 progressive frames into 48 interlaced fields, and then use repeat bits (which require no bandwidth) to send the other 12 interlaced fields in a 1080i60 signal.  Sending 48 unique fields, while repeating 12 of those fields, takes ~20% less bandwidth than a signal with 60 unique fields.

 

This technique is used on almost every movie and episodic series shown on CBS and NBC, as well as the movies shown on premium movie channels such as HBO, Showtime, and Starz.   Popular series like CSI, Heroes, Chuck, ER, The Office, and The Mentalist are all sent as 1080p24 by most affiliates -- just like you get from Blu-ray, but with more compression -- within a 1080i60 carrier.

 

A number of newer 1080p displays, as well as some external video processors, are able to detect the 1080p24 source inside a 1080i60 signal.  Through a process known as inverse telecine (IVTC), the display or processor takes the 1080i60 signal, detects and eliminates the duplicate fields (added with repeat bits) to obtain 48 interlaced fields, which it then combines to create the original 24p source.  On these external display processors, you can choose to output 1080p24 directly as you would from a Blu-ray player, or you can choose to output the signal as 1080p60 with 2:3 pull down.  A number of these video processors feature a 1080p24 LED that "lights up" whenever a 1080p24 source is detected within the 1080i signal.


Note that correct detection and output of 1080p24 from a 1080i60 signal does not mean you're going to get Blu-ray type quality.  Blu-ray still uses significantly less compression.  But on displays and processors that are able to detect the original 1080p24 source, you avoid the resolution loss and blurring caused by the traditional video deinterlace on most displays.   Some people assume that the blurring they say on their TV is inherent to the source, or caused by their broadcaster, when it is in fact caused by the video processing (or lack thereof) on their TV.   That said, 24p detection will not eliminate the blurring that is result of overcompression by the broadcaster.  Film (24p) detection requires a lot of processing power, which is why so few pre-2008 TVs can do it.  The cost of such processing falls every year, so many expect this feature to become more common in 2009 models.

 

Pioneer Kuro plasmas are considered by many to offer the best picture quality available.  The blacks and high contrast are the biggest reason for that, but they are also one of the few models (before 2009, anyway) to do this 24p detection, detecting and displaying the 1080p source contained within the 1080i signal.  If you are curious whether your 2008 TV has this capability, you might want to take a look at Gary Merson's 125 display roundup (PDF).  The "3/2 Pulldown" field in the PDF refers to this 24p detection capability.  Even among those that do 24p detection, some displays do it more reliably than others; for example, the 2007 Pioneer Kuro 5010/6020 models were among the first consumer TVs to do this, but Pioneer improved the reliability of this function in the 2008 models.

 

If you want to detect and output the original 1080p24 source within the FiOS 1080i60 signal for a 1080p TV without this capability, then you can buy your own video processor to do just that.  The cheapest is the DVDO Edge ($799 MSRP, but can be found for $599-$699) while a higher-end model with more reliable 24p detection would be the Denon DVP-602ci ($2000+).   Some people are waiting for reviews on the repeatedly delayed GefenTV Scaler Pro, which uses the same processor in the Denon for less than half the price. The level of improvement you see would depend on the quality of the existing video deinterlace in your TV, as well as the size of your screen; the improvement isn't likely to be very obvious on a 42" screen.  On the other hand, if you have a large screen...

Message Edited by KenAF on 03-23-2009 05:38 PM
If you are the original poster (OP) and your issue is solved, please remember to click the "Solution?" button so that others can more easily find it.
Copper Contributor
SamRay
Posts: 20
Registered: ‎03-14-2009
Location: California
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Re: Anyway to get a 1080p signal from fios?


KenAF wrote:

What you've stated above is a common misconception.  While a 1080p60 signal represents twice as much information, and would therefore require roughly twice as much bandwidth, the same is not true of 1080p24.

 


Thank you for your extensive detailed explanation, but I expect that most of us won't understand and most of this is not currently relevant to most of us.

 

I think most of us are interested in 1080p24i and 1080p24p. Oh, and first, perhaps you should explain the difference between 1080p60 and 1080p24. I am not sure, but perhaps 1080p60 has 60 frames per second and 1080p24 has 24 frames per second. If so, then it really helps to mention that, since most people are not familiar with that. If I am wrong, then I think it is even more importatn to explain the difference. I do know that i is interlaced and p is progressive. So on the subject of 1080p24, what is the difference between interlaced and progressive? As far as I know, they both have the same data, except interlaced does not send the data sequentially and progressive does. If that is true, however, then I don't understand the advantage of using interlaced instead of progressive. Isn't interlaced only for support of older CRTs?

 

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