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Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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Hi All,

I have the Fios router (3100) and two MoCa adapters (Actiontec WCB3000N) in my house, and everything works great.

A few days ago, Verizon upgraded our ONT box due to some tv signal strength issues, so we now have ONT Model I-211M-L. The primary tech yesterday had said this is the ONT needed for up to gigabit speed. However, half my house is not wired for ethernet, but it does have coax everywhere, so I'd like to keep using MoCa. The primary tech had said that the coax cables throughout the house were limited to about 100/100 speeds, but I think he may have been getting confused between the coax cables throughout the house versus the max speed that can come off the MoCa coax terminal in the ONT box.  I think MoCa 2.0 can do 500, 2.0 bonded can do 1000, and 2.5 can do higher, right? (The primary tech actually didn't know what I meant when I asked what version of MoCa the new ONT box was.)

So, I have a couple questions.

1. Is the primary tech right (although he may possibly have been confused?) that the MoCa coax terminal on the ONT box is limited to about 100/100? (The secondary tech that was with him had understood my question and thought that it was MoCa 2.0, which I think would be much higher than 100?)

1a. If the primary tech is not right about it being limited to about 100/100, then what speeds can I actually get out of the MoCa terminal on the ONT box, going through the coax wires in the house?  Anyone know what version of MoCa the new ONT box is? Like I said, the secondary tech thought it was 2.0, but he wasn't positive.  (I have also contacted Verizon several times by phone and chat, and none of them have understood what I meant.)

1b. If the primary tech is correct, then I think I need to have the ONT box switched over from having an activated MoCa terminal to having an activated ethernet terminal, correct? If so, then I would need to know how to set up MoCa again. Please let me know if the following is correct:
i) connect ONT directly to router via (5e minimum) ethernet wire (for internet) and coax (for tv set-top box stuff). I would actually have coax going from ONT to a splitter (splitter I'm currently using with MoCa), with one out of the splitter going to the router, and the other outs going to where I have other tv STBs in the house and where I want MoCa adapters.
ii) now because the router is connected via coax to the whole network (i.e., through its connection to the splitter), I can simply use MoCa adapters wherever I need them by plugging them into coax terminals in the walls (e.g., in the bedrooms), like I'm doing now with the two Actiontecs

Do I have all this correct? What I'm also really unsure about is whether the G3100 router is able to "translate" the ethernet signal it gets from its direct ethernet-wired connection with ONT into a MoCa signal that it transmits through all the coax in the house. I know the ONT box is doing that right now, but if the MoCa terminal on the ONT box is shut (in favor of ethernet terminal on ONT box), then am I missing the part of the system that "translates" the ethernet signal into a MoCa signal (or, again, is the G3100 router able to do that)? Do I somehow need to put another type of adapter into the system (and, if so, where/how do I connect it)? (And, if I do need this other type of adapter, any suggestions on which one to get?)

Right now, we only have 75/75 speeds, so I can't even test it. The primary tech had said that customer service will probably refuse to even upgrade my speeds unless I have the ethernet terminal activated, but the primary tech also said that if I begged then customer service might upgrade the speed without activating the ethernet terminal.  (The other issue is that when I call or chat with Verizon, they all say that speeds higher than 75/75 are not available in my area, although most [if not all] of my neighbors have higher.  The problem is that their systems still tell them I have the old ONT box, which I believe was limited to 75/75.)

I will not be getting gigabit now, because I don't want to pay for that (and I really don't think we need it). But I wouldn't mind going to 150, or 200 (or maybe even 400 depending on price)...but would I get the benefits of those speeds with one of the two set-ups I have in mind.

Anything else I'm not considering?

Thanks in advance!

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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Thank you for this wall of text. I appreciate your verbosity... (just kidding, thank you for the details).

 


The primary tech had said that the coax cables throughout the house were limited to about 100/100 speeds...


According to your setup, this is correct. The WCB3000Ns limit the LAN MoCA to version 1.1, with a maximum theoretical throughput of 175Mbps (less than 130Mbps in reality). Verizon technicians are kind of humble about MoCA speeds, he did not err to say that they are limited to 100/100.

 

I heard this while chatting with a technician this August, in quotes


So if you use moca you will not get more than 100mbps of speed

It should be non moca via Ethernet cable to get the best speed


Even their MoCA 2.0 devices support up to 500Mbps, they are very humble and reserved to say that.

 


Anyone know what version of MoCa the new ONT box is? Like I said, the secondary tech thought it was 2.0, but he wasn't positive


The MoCA on the ONT is 1.0/1.1 for I-211M-L. This is the reason why a <100/100 subscription is connected via coax and a higher speed subscription requires an ethernet connection between the ONT and the router.

 

What I'm also really unsure about is whether the G3100 router is able to "translate" the ethernet signal it gets from its direct ethernet-wired connection with ONT into a MoCa signal that it transmits through all the coax in the house. I know the ONT box is doing that right now

Yes, no, and yes. The ONT translates WAN ethernet into MoCA 1.1 and G3100 receives this WAN MoCA. G3100 translates LAN ethernet into MoCA 1.1 and WCB3000N's receive the LAN MoCA. The ONT does not communicate with a layer 2 device in your network. Otherwise your home network is exposed to the public.

 

After decommissioning the MoCA on the ONT, G3100 will continue the translation of LAN to MoCA 1.1 to feed the WCB3000N's.

 

Comments on your equipment:

G3100 + 2 WCB3000N, a combination of the newest Verizon router and the oldest of the extender. You probably bought WCB3000N from Ebay or Amazon for cheap? Or are they brought by a technician free of charge? G3100 supports MoCA 2.5 (2500Mbps theoretically) and WCB3000N supports MoCA 1.1, a huge jump in their versions. If you are considering internet subscription greater than 200Mbps, or you need higher LAN connection speed to run a NAS or a server, I would suggest you to buy some Bonded MoCA 2.0 adapters. I am alluding to Verizon's ECB5240M, $55, 1000Mbps (750Mbps+ in reality), no wireless, and 4 ethernet ports. This should at least establish a higher speed link in your house. WCB3000N will continue to talk to G3100 with MoCA 1.1

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

Message 2 of 18
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Thank you for this wall of text. I appreciate your verbosity... (just kidding, thank you for the details).

 


The primary tech had said that the coax cables throughout the house were limited to about 100/100 speeds...


According to your setup, this is correct. The WCB3000Ns limit the LAN MoCA to version 1.1, with a maximum theoretical throughput of 175Mbps (less than 130Mbps in reality). Verizon technicians are kind of humble about MoCA speeds, he did not err to say that they are limited to 100/100.

 

I heard this while chatting with a technician this August, in quotes


So if you use moca you will not get more than 100mbps of speed

It should be non moca via Ethernet cable to get the best speed


Even their MoCA 2.0 devices support up to 500Mbps, they are very humble and reserved to say that.

 


Anyone know what version of MoCa the new ONT box is? Like I said, the secondary tech thought it was 2.0, but he wasn't positive


The MoCA on the ONT is 1.0/1.1 for I-211M-L. This is the reason why a <100/100 subscription is connected via coax and a higher speed subscription requires an ethernet connection between the ONT and the router.

 

What I'm also really unsure about is whether the G3100 router is able to "translate" the ethernet signal it gets from its direct ethernet-wired connection with ONT into a MoCa signal that it transmits through all the coax in the house. I know the ONT box is doing that right now

Yes, no, and yes. The ONT translates WAN ethernet into MoCA 1.1 and G3100 receives this WAN MoCA. G3100 translates LAN ethernet into MoCA 1.1 and WCB3000N's receive the LAN MoCA. The ONT does not communicate with a layer 2 device in your network. Otherwise your home network is exposed to the public.

 

After decommissioning the MoCA on the ONT, G3100 will continue the translation of LAN to MoCA 1.1 to feed the WCB3000N's.

 

Comments on your equipment:

G3100 + 2 WCB3000N, a combination of the newest Verizon router and the oldest of the extender. You probably bought WCB3000N from Ebay or Amazon for cheap? Or are they brought by a technician free of charge? G3100 supports MoCA 2.5 (2500Mbps theoretically) and WCB3000N supports MoCA 1.1, a huge jump in their versions. If you are considering internet subscription greater than 200Mbps, or you need higher LAN connection speed to run a NAS or a server, I would suggest you to buy some Bonded MoCA 2.0 adapters. I am alluding to Verizon's ECB5240M, $55, 1000Mbps (750Mbps+ in reality), no wireless, and 4 ethernet ports. This should at least establish a higher speed link in your house. WCB3000N will continue to talk to G3100 with MoCA 1.1

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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Thank you!!!  This is (almost) all of the information I needed!  (Even though the following is wordy, you really did answer almost all my questions!)

 

I should have included that I am willing to get rid of the two Actiontecs in order to get higher version MoCa devices.  You are correct that I got them because they were cheap ($20 each on Amazon), had wifi, and were more than enough for 75/75 speeds (which is what I'm currently paying for).

 

So if I understand everything correctly, I need to have verizon switch the ONT from MoCa to ethernet, and then add an ethernet wire from between the ONT and router (and keep the coax cable going from the ONT to the router for the tv STBs).

 

After that, I can just replace the Actiontecs with up to 2.5 coax-in-to-ethernet-out adapters, and I will get much higher speeds.  I will not need a separate device for converting ethernet-in-to-coax-out because the G3100 will actually be doing that as a MoCa version 2.5 device. 

 

(You had mentioned that the G3100 is "translat[ing] LAN ethernet into MoCa 1.1" and that "G3100 will continue the translation of LAN to MoCA 1.1", but I think you meant the G3100 is currently limited to 1.1  because of the WCB3000N's; I don't think you meant G3100 is limited to 1.1 by itself, because of your later note that "G3100 supports MoCa 2.5"...did I understand that correctly?)

 

My current coax wirings can stay as-is, meaning: coax from ONT to splitter, coax from splitter to G3100, other coax from splitter to tv STBs and to wherever else I want to put the Actiontecs (well, their replacements, really).  I don't need to change any of that wiring set-up, and I don't need any other devices (other than replacements for the Actiontecs), right?

 

Lastly, thank you for recommending "Verizon's ECB5240M, $55, 1000Mbps (750Mbps+ in reality)".  The only problem is that if I have the ethernet port on the ONT activated, I will need to move my router from its currently central location in the house - it will be moved much closer to one end of the house, and wifi will not reach to the other end.  Any recommendations for a 2.0/bonded 2.0/2.5 adapter that would also do wifi?  Or should I just look into a mesh system, or something else, etc.?  Or or should I get the ECB5240M and then add a wireless router (if that's the right term) off of the ECB5240M adapter?  (If so, any recommendations? 🙂 )

 

Somewhat lastly, if I get the ECB5240M adapter and also keep the WCB3000N adapters, then everything will get downgraded to a 1.1 system, right?  Its not like I'd be getting much higher speeds out of ECB5240M and lower speeds out of WCB3000N...right?

 

Last lastly, the primary tech that was here had said that Verizon would probably upgrade our speeds over MoCa if we really begged.  It doesn't make much sense to me that companies will change what they offer you based on how well you beg...but I've seen strange things out of big companies before.  Any idea if the tech was right? (Again, he wasn't quite sure what "MoCa" even was - also, I never told him what types of MoCa adapters I had, so he didn't know their limits; he was talking about either the ONT MoCa port or just coax wires in general, although he didn't really know what MoCa was.)

 

Honestly lastly this time - this is my first time posting in these forums.  I really liked your answer, but I didn't click on "This solved my problem" (or whatever) button because I didn't know if it would close the thread.  Would it do that?

 

Thanks again, and sorry for all the words!  (I'm a lawyer by day [not the bad kind!!], and by night when hybrid schooling kids don't let me work doing the day!)

 

Thanks!

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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I see you are a lawyer, that's why everything is accounted in detail.

I will only respond to your key questions.

 


So if I understand everything correctly, I need to have verizon switch the ONT from MoCa to ethernet, and then add an ethernet wire from between the ONT and router (and keep the coax cable going from the ONT to the router for the tv STBs).


Not necessarily. If you are not going to upgrade your subscription higher than 100Mbps any time soon, there is no need to connect the ONT and the router with an ethernet cable. G3100 can handle WAN MoCA 1.1 from the ONT, as well as serving a LAN MoCA transmitter simultaneously.

 


I don't think you meant G3100 is limited to 1.1 by itself, because of your later note that "G3100 supports MoCa 2.5"


Correct. G3100's LAN MoCA supports up to 2.5, and backwards compatible with 1.0, 1.1, 2.0, and Bonded 2.0.

 


if I get the ECB5240M adapter and also keep the WCB3000N adapters, then everything will get downgraded to a 1.1 system, right?


No. Having multiple versions of MoCA devices will not downgrade higher rated devices to the lowest supported verision. G3100 will communicate with WCB3000N with MoCA 1.1, and ECB5240M with Bonded MoCA 2.0.

 


The only problem is that if I have the ethernet port on the ONT activated, I will need to move my router from its currently central location in the house - it will be moved much closer to one end of the house, and wifi will not reach to the other end. Any recommendations for a 2.0/bonded 2.0/2.5 adapter that would also do wifi? Or should I just look into a mesh system, or something else, etc.?


The answer to this question is complicated. It depends on several factors, such as flexibility, scalability, complexity, security, and performance. First, there is no need to relocate G3100 to make an ethernet connection with the ONT for the reason stated in fourth paragraph.

 

If no speed upgrade is necessary and thus no relocation is incurred, you can continue using your system without problem.

 

If you want to upgrade your speed and thinks 175Mbps for WiFi is enough, you can buy ECB5240M for locations where you need wired connections to take full advantage of the subscription speed and additional WCB3000N for the locations that need WiFi. This is the most economic solution with a higher speed subscription.

 

If you want to upgrade your speed and want to upgrade your WiFi to 350+Mbps, you can buy used G1100 on eBay for $50 each. Although G1100 is the older generation of G3100, it can function as a dual-band wireless access point (up to 350+Mbps on WiFi) and 4 ethernet ports (500Mbps+) switch with the broadband function disabled. Typically, a WCB6200Q (WCB3000N's younger brother) is recommended for both higher speed WiFi and ethernet extension, but G1100 is preferred for the sake of saving $20 at the performance level.

 

If you want to have a gigabit LAN backbone and a stable meshed WiFi system to 750Mbps+, you need to buy third party enterprise-grade access points and ECB5240Ms to serve as MoCA to ethernet translators. This setup will cost the most, around $135 per location. This will give you the most control over your wireless network. I would recommend Aruba Instant On AP 11 as the access points. They cost $80 each.

 

When you mark an answer as a "solution," it will not lock the post. You can always reopen the discussion by adding another reply.

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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Marking thread solutions doesn't close the thread. Forum moderators and admins are the ones who would close the thread if needed. Typically they do that when the thread goes too far off topic or, when it is aged.

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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Thanks (again!) for all the info.

 

I'm wondering if the following might be my best overall solution:

 

1. call verizon and have them switch my ONT from MoCa to ethernet;

1a. have a couple ibuprofen after said call;

2. connect my ONT to router directly with ethernet wire

2a. also connect my ONT to router with coaxial as follows: ONT-->splitter-->router + various locations where I have STBs and want MoCa adapters;

3. connect ECB5240M  via coaxial at opposite end of house from where router now is;

4. get a fios E3200 and connect that via ethernet to the ECB5240M.

 

Lets say I order 400 Mbps from Verizon.  The above set-up would mean I'd have both the G3100 and the E3200 being fed the full 400 Mbps and outputting on WiFi the full 400 Mbps also, right?  (with the ECB5240M being bonded 2.0, I could actually get close to gigabit speed, I think.)

 

The reason I am suggesting I use the E3200 is because I think this would become a mesh system; Verizon seems to use the terminology "Self Organizing Network" ("SON"), which - from research - appears to be a mesh network (maybe not technically, but for all intents and purposes).  Did I understand it correctly?

 

(And, if I want wired ethernet anywhere else, I could use the old WCB3000N at specific points, although those would be limited to about 100 speeds.)

 

Did I get all this correct?  If so, then I'm going to need to run the ethernet wire from my ONT to where my g3100 router will be.  Is cat 5e sufficient, or should I invest in a higher grade?  It will be in the garage where the ONT is, running up a wall, across the ceiling, down a wall, and then through the garage wall (almost directly into the router).

 

Thanks!

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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E3200 is a MoCA 2.5 adapter by itself, with dual band WiFi up to 802.11ax, and 2 ethernet ports. E3200 is advertised to be a mesh system with G3100, and it costs $200.

 

If you buy E3200, you don't need ECB5240M unless you want more ethernet ports. For that purpose, then a simple unmanaged switch will expand more ethernet ports.

 

E3200 is kind of inadvisable due to its price and rigidity. Actually, I felt G3100 you bought is also kind of an overkill for your broadband speed. You can buy E3200 and it will be "happy" to pair with G3100.

 

Since E3200 costs $200, why don't you buy a third-party enterprise-grade access point and an ECB5240M. It will cost $60 less per each location. If you mesh just two access points (G3100 and E3200) while leaving other WCB3000Ns there unmeshed, then I think you miss the point of meshing the WiFi at all. I am just wondering if you turn on SON at G3100 to mesh E3200, it will render all WCB3000N unusable because they don't know about SON and will behave unexpectedly. Then, you need to resort to buy another E3200 to extend the meshed WiFi? It is not worth the price of $400.

 

Since you want to mesh your WiFi and better speed, I suggest you to go with ECB5240M + Aruba Instant On AP11 at each location (2 presumably). Aruba is an enterprise network solution company, I believe their products are better than average. At each location, you plug the coax to ECB5240M, then connect the AP11 with an ethernet cable to ECB5240M. AP11 can create a meshed WiFi between each other, up to 25 of them.

 

Just a side note, AP11 sales for $80 on B&H Photos, an authorized retailer. It does not come with a DC 12V power adapter. I believe you can find one at your home from obsolete electronic devices, so no need to buy one separately unless you really cannot find one.

 

What do you think, please let me know.

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

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Hi Cang,

 

Thanks for the info.

 

I didn't actually buy the G3100.  Our previous one died, and this one was only like $5/more per month from verizon than what we had been paying, so it seemed like a no-brainer.

 

I hadn't thought about it - if the G3100 is putting out MoCa 2.5, then I guess the E3200 would be able to accept the MoCa 2.5 and provide me high speed internet out of it (both ethernet wired and wifi).  At that point, I can feed the E3200 into a switch by ethernet wire (I already have an 8 port switch) and send it wherever I need, eh?

 

I understand that its $200, but won't it "mesh" with the G3100 so that everything is seamless?  Otherwise, if I get a "third-party enterprise-grade access point", then I'd have a few different networks in the house (which I've had in the past, and it gets annoying, especially when the kids [and wife!] have devices and don't know how to switch between them).  (By the way, what exactly is a "third-party enterprise-grade access point"?  Do you mean the Aruba mesh components, which woudl then create a 2nd network in the house, in addition to the currently wifi network I have from G3100?) 

 

Also, if I did all this (i.e., adding E3200 to what I currently have), I would need only the G3100 and E3200; I would not need the current Actiontec WCB3000Ns I have, nor the ECB5240M.  So, I do think I'm understanding the mesh correctly (assuming that the "Self Organizing Network" thing is effectively a mesh).

 

Thoughts?  (and thanks again)

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

Message 9 of 18
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I see you rented G3100.

 

Here is my point: E3200 does not necessarily have a stronger signal and wireless coverage than WCB3000N. Since you will be moving your G3100 to a relatively remote location of the house, it is likely that you need more than one extender. Like I said in the last post, WCB3000N does not support SON. When you turn SON on at G3100, WCB3000N may not function. So you need to buy more than 1 E3200 for better coverage and speed, not so worth the money then.

 

Maybe you can return G3100 and buy a G1100, $75, on Ebay? They virtually have the same performance. G3100 has MoCA 2.5, 2500Mbps, however, your internet connection is likely to be capped at 400Mbps, so MoCA 2.0 is sufficient, which is the highest version supported on G1100.

 

If you change the main router to G1100, you will open the door to plenty of options. You can continue to use WCB3000N. If you want higher speed up to 500Mbps wired and wireless, you can purchase WCB6200Q for $75 on Ebay, or just buy another G1100 and disable its broadband functions.

 

I don't see a difference between meshed WiFi and access points set into the same SSID and password. Here are your options.

 

Regarding buying used networking equipment on Ebay, I don't see a warranty problem if you test the equipment fully upon arrival. I have plenty of old equipment at home. My WCB3000N is 8 years old, it still works giving me 120Mbps wirelessly. I hope some devices would die so I can upgrade them, but none have died yet.

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Re: Fios and High(er) Speed MoCa?

Message 10 of 18
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Hi Cang,

 

I understand that the E3200 does not necessarily have a stronger signal than the WCB3000N; however, it does have a few benefits over WCB3000N that I can tell: i) E3200 is MoCa 2.5 as opposed to 1.1, meaning that the E3200 would be getting a higher speed via its coax-in; and ii) the E3200 would form a mesh network with the G3100.  My understanding is that a mesh network is different from (and better than) a set-up where I have two separate routers (er, is that the right terminology?) with each having the same SSID and password.  In this second set-up, there are actually 2 separate networks, and my devices would need to decide which ones to use based on where they are.  I've had this in the past, and I have experienced a low wifi signal even when very close to one of the routers, and I assume this is because my phone had already connected to a further-away router and did not let go.  Please let me know if I am wrong.  (I know you said you don't see a difference between a mesh wifi and access points with same SSID/password - but isn't the difference what I mentioned above?)


I also don't think I'll need more than just the E3200.  My house is a perfect rectangle, with two floors (no basement).  I will need to put the G3100 on the first floor at one corner of the rectangle.  I would then put the E3200 on the second floor at the opposite corner of the rectangle. The G3100 currently by itself in the middle of the house on the 2nd floor is enough to give me a wifi signal almost everywhere (albeit weak in some rooms).  Therefore, I'm assuming that an E3200 added to a G3100 in the configuration I mentioned would be more than sufficient.

 

I don't understand why you say I will likely be capped at 400 Mbps.  Neighbors have gigabit.  Unless you meant that I had said I likely would not go above 400?

 

So, overall - am I right about the configuration?  Switch ONT from MoCa to ethernet, then connect ONT to G3100 router directly with ethernet wire.  Then, connect ONT via coax to a splitter, then connect splitter via coax to G3100 and also to where I have tv STBs and where I want to put E3200 extender.  All this should result in me being able to have gigabit speeds (if I were to pay verizon for that much).  Correct?

 

Also, is cat 5e sufficient for connecting ONT to G3100 router, or should I get something better?

 

Thanks!

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