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Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

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Hubrisnxs
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Posts: 5,881
Registered: ‎07-22-2009

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 21 of 46
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Unfortunately that didn't answer the question. I'd avoid that question too if I could.
TennisFreak
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Registered: ‎04-22-2014

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 22 of 46
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The worst part for Verizon is that they are cutting themselves out of money from their own customers.

 

I only have 15/5 FIOS internet service.

 

Since Netflix experience is so poor and others with even faster FIOS get the same crappy service I refuse to spend an extra cent with Verizon.  If I had another decent choice other than FIOS I would cancel Verizon all together.

 

I want to get a 50/25 or 75/35 upgrade and I even want to get FIOS TV.  


But I refuse to as long as Verizon is pulling this kind of crap because then I will be even more beholden to Verizons policies and shady business tactics.


So they are easily missing out of $50+ buck more per month from me, not to mention using any of their on demand services.  NOT GONNA HAPPEN.

 

Its a shame when I can get full HD Netflix on my LTE phone while at the same time on my hard wired home FIOS connection can barely get a below SD stream to play after 5 minutes.

 

hubrisnxs I know you blame Netflix but its awfully hard to believe that its them when its only Verizons connection that is slow.  If they did not have enough infrastructure or ISP bandwidth dont you think that it would be reflective on other ISP's too?  Dont you think that depending on load that sometimes my LTE connection should be bad like my FIOS and that sometimes my FIOS should be good?  Well its not like that!

Hubrisnxs
Platinum Contributor III
Platinum Contributor III
Posts: 5,881
Registered: ‎07-22-2009

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 23 of 46
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hubrisnxs I know you blame Netflix but its awfully hard to believe that its them when its only Verizons connection that is slow.  If they did not have enough infrastructure or ISP bandwidth dont you think that it would be reflective on other ISP's too?  Dont you think that depending on load that sometimes my LTE connection should be bad like my FIOS and that sometimes my FIOS should be good?  Well its not like that!



Why do you think they invented their open connect software?  They didn't do it because they had a good thing going with their current cabal of CDN's and middle men, right?  I mean if they are getting the job done right?  

 

problem is that they weren't getting the job done.  So netflix isn't incurring much if anything extra. 

Where they once were paying cogent - they are now paying comcast or Verizon.   These are normal Business Decisions. 

 

Google "forums netflix buffering problem" And then look at ALLLLL the companies that are involved.  It's not just verizon.  Verizon and AT&T are the last "big" hold outs as far as Netflix asking for free bandwidth. But if you google that term, you get About 221,000 results in less than a second. (0.32 seconds)  and it's not 221,000 posts about verizon.

 

All the others ISP's have either signed on with open connect (it made sense for them as a business since they aren't tier I ISP's)

 

The Tier I ISP's are the ones that actually create the network, meaning they engineer the technology have the outside plant etc.  If you start your own ISP - how easy would it be for you to let netflix bring in an open connect box.  pretty effortless.  It makes sense for independant ISP's to do so.  In the past if you had a business where you wanted a direct peering point, you might choose to go to a Tier I ISP and ask for it, and they would hand you their price sheet.

 

Netflix wants something for free, something that none of their competitors have.  Again, that's the definition of unfair business practices.

 

I'll repeat my question. 


why doesnt hulu/prime/hbogo/espn/vudu have these problems?


Do you really believe that it's all some big conspiracy to "get netflix"

 

Are these companies so rich that if they found a revenue stream, they wouldn't attach it to all the competitors?  why wouldn't these competitors have the very same problem netflix has.

 

Here's another analogy, and I hope it makes sense. 

 

If I have a problem with one person, and literally noone else has a problem with them, is it not concievable, that It might be my fault?

 

I could certainly understand if everyone had a problem here, but that isn't the case.  It's just netflix.   When I can swing on over to youtube, and amazon and hulu and get flawless playback, that screams something.  It's not a soft whisper.   It's not a passing thought.  It's a glaring admission.

 

monsterlab
Copper Contributor
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Posts: 9
Registered: ‎07-14-2014

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 24 of 46
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Why then can I get excellent service from other ISPs? Why is Brighthouse so much higher on Netflix's ISP performance report than Verizon? Why did the tiny little ISP that I was using while on vacation last week have no problems at all handling 1080p streams from Netflix, but my 75/35 Verizon connection can barely handle an SD stream? Why can I tether from my LTE phone and get flawless 1080p to the same device? How is this not a Verizon issue? 

 

Your argument that no one else (Amazon, Hulu, etc.) are having problems doesn't account for the fact that these other services aren't nearly as popular as Netflix, and aren't nearly as comprehensive of a solution for those that might be contemplating cutting the cord and dropping TV service completely. If the service that you want to use instead of cable performs poorly, it seems a lot more compelling to just keep TV service. 

 

It's hard for me, and anyone else who can perform some simple network analysis, to say that Verizon is completely without fault here. Frankly, all I care about is that it works just fine on my only other option in town (Brighthouse), and I'm about 2 monhts away from jumping ship. Netflix delivers me a service that I love. Verizon is simply a means to get there. 

Hubrisnxs
Platinum Contributor III
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Posts: 5,881
Registered: ‎07-22-2009

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 25 of 46
(1,429 Views)

You should be very glad that netflix cancelled contract with the poor CDN middle men and decided to go with Verizon. 

 

That from the reports looks like it's already being enacted in stages and a lot of people are already seeing improved performance.

 

1st Proof of Verizon / Netflix Direct Peering????

 

*edit correcting link

[Networking] 1st Proof of Verizon / Netflix Direct Peering ...

monsterlab
Copper Contributor
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Registered: ‎07-14-2014

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 26 of 46
(1,426 Views)

You link didn't post correctly. 

PJL
Gold Contributor V
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Posts: 2,069
Registered: ‎08-07-2008

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 27 of 46
(1,405 Views)

I'm with Hubrisnxs on this one.  I can predict the streaming level of my Netflix service and ISP Netflix is using to connect to the Verizon network depending on the on the client I use.  For example, the Windows 8.1 app uses one path (usually NTT or Telia routes) and I sometimes but rarely get SuperHD streaming.  Using a web browser with HTML 5 (Silverlight is slow) produces lower quality consistently.  My android app gets better quality (generally) and when casting my Android app to my Chromecast (likely HTML5) the quality is usually at least 480p, sometimes 720p, and almost never 1080p, although I sometimes get as high as 5700kbps.  On my Sony Blu-ray that client produces about the same performance as Chromecast does, but slightly less.  (FYI I play the Netflix speed test which gives actual streaming rates.  I also use ethernet statistics in Windows.)  Oh and I never actually see buffering, and the testing is consistent no matter what time of day it is.  And the ISP Netflix uses changes like the weather.

 

So what's going on?  Well clearly Netflix is tailoring their stream to me (limiting it) based on the method I'm using the view video since one client will get higher streams than others.  And they're using different a ISP to get to the Verizon network depending on the client.  (It's been widely reported that Apple TV clients never have this issue as often as others.)  Why would Netflix be limiting the stream this way except to try to get buffering-free performance.  Or may be doing it when buffering shouldn't be an issue (like truly off peak hours). 

 

When my charter cable Internet service wasn't providing the quality I thought I should be getting, I moved to FiOS.  I actually paid about the same.  So my streaming experience, knowledge of peering (like what Hubrisnxs reports and what I've researched) and detailed testing indicates to me that it's because Netflix is going on the cheap with their (multiple) ISPs and not getting the service they need to provide us with adequate streams.  Now Netflix is essentially moving to Verizon as their ISP for their connections to us, versus the multiple ones they have been using.  They played chicken and finally had admit that they had selected ISPs that did not provide them the interconnect service they needed because those interconnects violated the peering agreements that require equality of transit levels in both directions.  The admission comes in the form of selecting Verizon to be their ISP for us.

 

So I blame Netflix for using cheap ISPs that don't have -- and pay for -- adequate peering points/arrangements to support the Netflix traffic to a number of tier-one networks, not just Verizon's.  Moving to direct Verizon connections eliminates the middleman.  It may cost Netflix more to do it this way, but they're getting the ISP service they need to provide the streaming service we pay for -- and paying they're not paying for an ISP that will make it work.  Some areas of the East Coast are already seeing direct routing, and seeing the associate performance benefits. 

db909
Bronze Contributor II
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Posts: 214
Registered: ‎08-02-2013

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 28 of 46
(1,375 Views)

@PJL wrote:

So I blame Netflix for using cheap ISPs that don't have -- and pay for -- adequate peering points/arrangements to support the Netflix traffic to a number of tier-one networks, not just Verizon's.  Moving to direct Verizon connections eliminates the middleman.  It may cost Netflix more to do it this way, but they're getting the ISP service they need to provide the streaming service we pay for -- and paying they're not paying for an ISP that will make it work.  Some areas of the East Coast are already seeing direct routing, and seeing the associate performance benefits. 


Netflix does not use ISPs to get content to FIOS.  FIOS is an ISP, so is Comcast  etc etc.  Content Delivery Networks (CDNs) deliver traffic between Netflix and ISPs like FIOS.

 

Google "Open Connect".  Netflix offered it to ISPs like FIOS 2 years ago to bypass CDNs and avoid this very problem.  Some large ISPs like FIOS and Comcast declined to participate.  The ISPs that did are the ISPs that are on top of the Netflix ISP speed index every month.  ISPs like FIOS that did not participate have the customers that are complaining about buffering.

 

https://www.netflix.com/openconnect

 

The problem Netflix had with FIOS and Comcast was that regardless of how much bandwidth Netflix bought from their CDNs that type of networking only works if the receiving party has enough ports to receive the data.  FIOS and Comcast knowingly allowed their receiving ports to become saturated or congested. Even if Netflix adjusted their CDN usage mix, the sum of data being sent to ISPs is greater than what they were able to receive which is why people in large markets (primarily the two coasts) have been suffering for a long time.

 

The FIOS/Comcast perspective was “why should we have to pay more money to get more ports so our customers can watch Netflix?” This is not a trivial expense as Netflix traffic accounts for 1/3 of all US internet traffic during prime time. This really becomes an interesting issue when you consider that both FIOS (Redbox) and Comcast (Xfinity TV) have competing products which while insignificant today, both hope will gain market share and compete with Netflix.

 

I can see both sides of this.

 

ISPs really should be like utilities and be required to be a “pipe” and pass on all data equally at the same speed regardless of source. The fact that they are allowed to host their own competing products like Redbox locally to avoid transit costs while not offering the same to Netflix smacks of monopolistic behavior.

 

On the other hand I do understand an ISP’s reluctance to simply have to bear to whatever comes their way in terms of traffic.

PJL
Gold Contributor V
Gold Contributor V
Posts: 2,069
Registered: ‎08-07-2008

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 29 of 46
(1,368 Views)

@db909 wrote:

@PJL wrote:

So I blame Netflix for using cheap ISPs that don't have -- and pay for -- adequate peering points/arrangements to support the Netflix traffic to a number of tier-one networks, not just Verizon's.  Moving to direct Verizon connections eliminates the middleman.  It may cost Netflix more to do it this way, but they're getting the ISP service they need to provide the streaming service we pay for -- and paying they're not paying for an ISP that will make it work.  Some areas of the East Coast are already seeing direct routing, and seeing the associate performance benefits. 


Netflix does not use ISPs to get content to FIOS.  FIOS is an ISP, so is Comcast  etc etc.  Content Delivery Networks (CDNs) deliver traffic between Netflix and ISPs like FIOS.

 

Google "Open Connect".  Netflix offered it to ISPs like FIOS 2 years ago to bypass CDNs and avoid this very problem.  Some large ISPs like FIOS and Comcast declined to participate.  The ISPs that did are the ISPs that are on top of the Netflix ISP speed index every month.  ISPs like FIOS that did not participate have the customers that are complaining about buffering.

 

https://www.netflix.com/openconnect

 

The problem Netflix had with FIOS and Comcast was that regardless of how much bandwidth Netflix bought from their CDNs that type of networking only works if the receiving party has enough ports to receive the data.  FIOS and Comcast knowingly allowed their receiving ports to become saturated or congested. Even if Netflix adjusted their CDN usage mix, the sum of data being sent to ISPs is greater than what they were able to receive which is why people in large markets (primarily the two coasts) have been suffering for a long time.

 

The FIOS/Comcast perspective was “why should we have to pay more money to get more ports so our customers can watch Netflix?” This is not a trivial expense as Netflix traffic accounts for 1/3 of all US internet traffic during prime time. This really becomes an interesting issue when you consider that both FIOS (Redbox) and Comcast (Xfinity TV) have competing products which while insignificant today, both hope will gain market share and compete with Netflix.

 

I can see both sides of this.

 

ISPs really should be like utilities and be required to be a “pipe” and pass on all data equally at the same speed regardless of source. The fact that they are allowed to host their own competing products like Redbox locally to avoid transit costs while not offering the same to Netflix smacks of monopolistic behavior.

 

On the other hand I do understand an ISP’s reluctance to simply have to bear to whatever comes their way in terms of traffic.


A content delivery network for a content provider is analogous for me to an ISP for the consumer.  So I'll use the terms "consumer ISP" and "content provider ISP" to get my point accross in the future.

 

I know all about Open Connect. Netflix offered it as an so-called "free" option that would require consumer ISPs to host Netflix servers within the consumer ISP's network and in their premises.  It would cost ISPs money to implement this because they were required to house the Netflix hardware and connect it to their internal networks.  (I don't think these two things are trivial especially for the magnitude of the last task.)  Smaller ISPs found this to be avantageous due to the size of their network, but the larger ones did not due to the larger scale of their systems (size of the network, number of customers, geographic diversity, backbone capabilitiy, etc.). 

 

The problem with the content provider ISPs Netflix chose is that the they pushed more bits to Verizon than Verizon pushed to the content provider ISP to a level that was above the levels established in the peering agreements.  (I think you made this point without reference to the peering agreements, but I think it's the same point anyway.)  So Netflix didn't exactly get what they paid for from their content provider ISP.

 

I tried to think of a utility that has an analgous situation to the peering points between consumer ISP companies and content provider ISPs and couldn't come up with one.  The "traditional" phone service companies perhaps, but the amount of data exchanged between them is small compared to the Internet traffice.  Can you think of a specific utility service that is truly analagous to the Internet?  If you can, it would help me jump on board your comment that ISPs should really be like utilities.  As a consumer, I do agree with it, but I'm trying to think of a way that the ISPs could be forced to act like true utilities except by edict.  I consider my Internet to be a utiity, but it's a new type of utility.  And yes, I would like it to be treated like the old utilities, especially for dealing with interconnect issues and having to comply with technical standards for service levels.  And the ongoing so-called "net neutrality" discussion is a case in point.  What is "net neutrality" anyway?  It has a different definition depending on whether you're a consumer, and consumer ISP, a content provider ISP, or a content provider.   The consumer definition should take precedence, but in today's world of large corporations and their influence, it usually doesn't.

 

So in the mean time and given today's reality of how the Internet works,  I have to determine the immediate cause of my poor Netflix streaming performance and in this case point the finger at Netflix, not Verizon.  Netflix was innovative in their service model to begin with, but then came up against the realities of how the Internet works from a business standpoint. 

 

I think your post was at a more philosophical level than mine.  But we have the same bottom-line goal -- we want the service that we pay for. 

 

db909
Bronze Contributor II
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Posts: 214
Registered: ‎08-02-2013

Re: Funny Verizon blog post; lies about Netflix

Message 30 of 46
(1,342 Views)

@PJL wrote:

 

So in the mean time and given today's reality of how the Internet works,  I have to determine the immediate cause of my poor Netflix streaming performance and in this case point the finger at Netflix, not Verizon.  Netflix was innovative in their service model to begin with, but then came up against the realities of how the Internet works from a business standpoint. 



You can "determine" whatever you wish.

 

I get  better Netflix on a vacation home that is 15/2 on a local cable company than I do on FIOS at 50/25.

 

Frankly after Comcast made their network changes last January, the only people really complaining about Netflix performance are FIOS customers, so call it a Netflix issue if it makes you feel better. 

 

This really is a FIOS issue and for whatever reason they seem incapable of "upgrading" their network in the same rapid manner that Comcast did.  Once FIOS does, people will stop complaining.

 

If you don't believe me check out this long thread on DSLR:

 

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r28902007-Netflix-unable-to-stream-HD-in-Northeast-~start=300

 

The two most recent posts:

 

 

"The interesting thing (to me) in the graphic that Verizon published recently about the network utilization was just how high their peak usage rates were in their internal network. Those are pretty darned high numbers. Pretty close to the edge of failing.

If Verizon did fix their peering issues they may find that their internal network can't handle the Netflix traffic. Even without Netflix, natural bandwidth utilization increases will shortly overcome what they've got.

I hope they're upgrading their internal network like mad."

 

"Just tried my weekly random test-
Could barely pull 720p in the middle of the day.

Accessing via L3 in Atlanta."

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