Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
Justin46
Legend

Very good post tsk! Facts, not fiction or guesses. I have been meaning to use my Kill-a-Watt to do just what you did, just haven't gotten around to it, now you have saved me the time and trouble. 

A question: do you plan to do any measurements on the STBs? That is another piece that does need to be quantified.

Thank you.

__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX

Message Edited by Justin on 12-31-2008 02:02 PM
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Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
tsk
Enthusiast - Level 3

@MeatChicken wrote:

The DVR Drive is always spinning & recording the channels, even when the box is "off", 24/7,  & even if  there is nothing set to record.


This one caught my attention so I decided to check this behavior myself.  Yes I knew the 6416 maintained a buffer of "live" TV to allow you to pause and rewind, but I did not expect this to continue when the unit is powered off.  In fact, the generic Motorola guide for this DVR specifically indicates that powering off would erase your live buffer.

It seems the Verizon-provided units, however, do always record live TV regardless of their power state.  I confirmed this by turning off the STB for a few minutes, then turning it on and "rewinding" the channel. Sure enough not one second was lost.

I then took some readings with my WattsUp Pro and became somewhat dissapointed.  When the DVR was powered on, it was consuming around 32.2 watts continually.  When I started recording a second channel while watching the first, consumption increased by about 0.2 watts.  Now the dissappointing part:  When I stopped the recording and turned the DVR off, power usage remained at 31.7 watts!

I can't say definitively, but I am wondering if this is what mjkboston was seeing as part of the increased household usage.  This certainly was unexpected for me and definitely very dissapointing.  A powered-off device that should be doing absolutely nothing that still uses over 30 watts is truly a waste.

Each DVR would increase household usage by 0.72KWH per day, or about 21.6 KWH each month.  On Long Island, NY where our electric rates are already high, this would increase our monthly costs by about $8 (using current rates) or almost $100 per year.  This would be regardless of whether the DVR was actually used or not - as long as it is plugged in it is using a bit of power.

While $8/month may not sound like a signficant amount (it is just over a quarter a day), that is $8 I'd rather spend elsewhere.  It is also not very "green" and is nothing more than a pure waste of our resources.  I shudder when I think of how many DVRs Verizon has deployed, with each one needlessly wasting electric 24/7 while serving no purpose.  This waste could otherwise power entire blocks of homes.

I would second MeatChicken's suggestion for Verizon to offer a "Power Save" option that can be enabled.  Better yet, the recording of live TV should stop when the box is powered off all the time, especially since this would seem to be Motorola's intent and default configuration.  I would also want Verizon to confirm that there is nothing else needlessly drawing power when the DVR is not turned on (IE: perhaps the tuners shouldn't need to be powered unless a program is being recorded)

Message Edited by tsk on 12-31-2008 12:54 PM
Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
FranG
Enthusiast - Level 2

Usually we put all our electronics on strips and turn them off when not in use.  And set the laptop to power itself off when we forget.

(Like turning lights when we leave a room, recycling, cleaning with vinegar water - don't get me started. I've been using cloth bags for 20 years)

Just confirming what you said:

I can safely do the same - put the modem, dvr, stb's on a power strip and turn it off at night.  They will just boot up again when I need them?

thanks for all the input and testing.

Fran

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Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
Justin46
Legend

The 30+ watts when turned off is consistent with the reporting that was done quite a while ago by someone on DSLReports.

I believe the internals are left powered on so that, if you have something scheduled to record, that the electronics are alive to do that. They (Motorola) could certainly have designed the DVR to be smarter and more efficient about what is left powered up, but they weren't, so we (and Verizon) have what we have. I just don't worry about it, I am gradually putting flourescent lights throughout the house, that should at least partially make up for it. And when the summer monthly electric bill is $300+, another few bucks are not my biggest worry anyway...

Of course Fran is correct, put everything you want on a strip and turn the strip off, usage will drop to zero. But it won't record anything either during that time, and I do have mine set to occasionally record some stuff while I am sleeping....

Once again, thanks for doing the measuring.

__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX

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Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
Justin46
Legend

@tsk wrote:

I would second MeatChicken's suggestion for Verizon to offer a "Power Save" option that can be enabled.  Better yet, the recording of live TV should stop when the box is powered off all the time, especially since this would seem to be Motorola's intent and default configuration.  I would also want Verizon to confirm that there is nothing else needlessly drawing power when the DVR is not turned on (IE: perhaps the tuners shouldn't need to be powered unless a program is being recorded)


I disagree with the statement I highlighted. My Motorola User Guide for the QIP6416 (521696-001 rev B dated 7/05) very clearly says "Please note the hard drive will stay on even when the set-top is turned off."

And I disagree with MeatChicken's suggestion: if Verizon/Motorola offered that option, some people would use it, and then they would miss a recording, and always blame Verizon,and there would be even more complaining here than there is now. Far better IMHO to just leave it like it is for the existing millions of STBs out there, and focus on being greener in the next generation of boxes.

__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX

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Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
tsk
Enthusiast - Level 3

@Justin wrote:

I believe the internals are left powered on so that, if you have something scheduled to record, that the electronics are alive to do that.


There is nothing wrong with this, and virtually all consumer electronics devices do this today.  The difference is in what remains powered-on and what gets turned off or "put to sleep".  You most certainly do not need to keep the entire device powered full-time simply to be able to record a scheduled program in the future.

The point I was trying to make is that there is only perhaps a 1/2 watt difference between being powered-on and powered-off.  That is only about a 2% difference.  Clearly powered-off means nothing in this case.


They (Motorola) could certainly have designed the DVR to be smarter and more efficient about what is left powered up, but they weren't, so we (and Verizon) have what we have.


Do you know for a fact that this is a Motorola design issue and not a Verizon firmware issue?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but based on what I find at http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/dct6412.asp I would not necesarily assume that.  In particular on page 36 of the generic user guide at http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/downloads/URMD2.pdf states that: 

For live TV recordings, the temporary recording buffer will be erased if any of the following occur:

• Turn off your DVR.

While that does not specifically note that the hard drive would need be shut down as well, it does indicate that recording stops when the DVR is turned off so it is not unreasonable to expect that other components are powered down too, especially given how simple it is to wake/powerup devices.  If you have evidence to the contrary I would be interested in seeing it as well.


Of course Fran is correct, put everything you want on a strip and turn the strip off, usage will drop to zero. But it won't record anything either during that time, and I do have mine set to occasionally record some stuff while I am sleeping....


Ah - but that is my point.  There is no reason the device needs to continually consume 30 watts just to be able to record a scheduled program, and it is not very difficult to be able to accomodate this especially given today's technologies.  I would also be curious about leaving STBs and DVRs powered off via a power strip or otherwise unplugged for extended periods.  With other providers this would result in the device being de-provisioned automatically and it would either take a short time being powered on or a call to the provider to have the device re-provisioned.  Can anyone comment on how this is handled with FiOS (devices disconnected for extended periods?)

Regardless, as I noted, it isn't so much an issue of a single device, but when taken in large scale it is staggering.  The power wasted by just a thousand DVRs could easily serve several homes completely.  In fact, the power consumed by just 100 "powered-off" DVRs could easily provide for an entire home.

Some more detail:  I have an HDHomeRun QAM dual-tuner.  When "idle" and not otherwise tuned or streaming it uses 5 watts.  When tuned and streaming a single channel it uses 6.3 watts, and when tuned and streaming two channels it uses 7.5 watts.  My laptop consumes about 13 watts idle and about 18 watts when viewing and recording an HD channel streamed from my HDHR.  Fully utilized this combination draws less than a "powered-off" QIP6416 DVR.  While this does not mean that the DVR should behave similarly it does mean that we should not simply assume that nothing can be done to help here.

A DVR that is "powered off" should have a lower power consumption than one that is "powered on", plain and simple.  Yes, in order for it to be able to record scheduled programs when it is otherwise not turned on does mean it needs to have some "standby" power usage.  It absolutely does not mean that it needs 98% of its powered-on consumption.

Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
tsk
Enthusiast - Level 3

@Justin wrote:

And I disagree with MeatChicken's suggestion: if Verizon/Motorola offered that option, some people would use it, and then they would miss a recording, and always blame Verizon,and there would be even more complaining here than there is now. Far better IMHO to just leave it like it is for the existing millions of STBs out there, and focus on being greener in the next generation of boxes.


Actually that is not what I said (that you could not record while it was powered off).  You are making a very big assumption and that is that the device must remain fully-powered 100% of the time in order to perform scheduled recordings.  Other devices do this just fine and do in fact have lower power consumption when turned off while still being able to perform recordings.  For what it is worth I still have a 15-year old VCR (remember those?) that had a builtin timer that would turn the VCR on, tune to the specified channel, record for the specified time, then turn off.  It could do this four times with one schedule.  When turned off (but with the "timer" enabled) it would consume less than 5 watts, far less than when it was turned on.

For over a decade PCs have been able to "wake" themselves through their BIOS (yes, I have two Asus boards that could do this).  VCRs have been able to do it for longer.  Other DVRs, such as the SA8300, reportedly do this.  It is devices that continue to record the live TV buffer that have this problem, and yes Tivo is just as guilty here.  There are plenty of folks that similarly disagree with this (on Tivos) and desire a way to disable this feature to significantly reduce power usage when "powered off".  This is what I would like to see as either an optional feature or even the default with the Verizon QIP6416.

Edit: I might also point out that according to Seagate's specs, the DB35 series drives (such as the one in the Motorola DVR) have an average idle power consumption of 8 watts.  Clearly simply keeping the drive spinning is not the only waste here. 

The fact that the DVR is always recording live TV, whether it is powered on or not, means that it in fact is never powered off and is permanently "on".  It isn't clear the purpose of the power button here.

Message Edited by tsk on 12-31-2008 07:04 PM
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Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
Justin46
Legend

@tsk wrote:
Do you know for a fact that this is a Motorola design issue and not a Verizon firmware issue?  I'm not trying to be argumentative, but based on what I find at http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/dct6412.asp I would not necesarily assume that.  In particular on page 36 of the generic user guide at http://broadband.motorola.com/dvr/downloads/URMD2.pdf states that: 

For live TV recordings, the temporary recording buffer will be erased if any of the following occur:

• Turn off your DVR.

While that does not specifically note that the hard drive would need be shut down as well, it does indicate that recording stops when the DVR is turned off so it is not unreasonable to expect that other components are powered down too, especially given how simple it is to wake/powerup devices.  If you have evidence to the contrary I would be interested in seeing it as well.


I am pretty sure it is a Motorola issue, not Verizon. When the QIP6416 was first delivered by Verizon for FiOS, it had the Interactive Programming Guide (IPG), not the IMG of today. The IPG was supposedly written by Microsoft, definitely not by Verizon. Also, your quote is from a document for the DCT6412, which is not what Verizon uses, which is the QIP6416. I have the Motorola manual for this DVR, nowhere that I can find contains the quote you mentioned, or anything like it. Different box, different operation I think. As far as I can tell, the only thing that happens when you power the DVR off is that the outputs are disabled, everything else in the box is still alive. My guess is that this was simpler to engineer than trying to turn individual parts of the box off but still be able to react to a recording schedule, etc. Just my guess...  

As to the power consumption, sure, you are correct, it could have been designed better. But it wasn't. What would it take to fix it? Replace every QIP6416 in the inventory - 2 million plus boxes I bet. I have disconnected my STBs when we left for vacation, plugged them back in when we got back (2 to 3 weeks), worked just fine. That may be pot luck, but???

You know, I am not disagreeing with you on how it should be. But right now it isn't, and I would be willing to bet $$$ Verizon is not going to fix the existing boxes, it would cost far too much for no return to them. I would much prefer that they focus on the future, and whatever and whenever new boxes are introduced, they be truely green, or at least much greener than today.

Anyway, you have provided some good info, thanks again.

__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX

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Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
MeatChicken1
Contributor - Level 2

@Justin wrote:

@tsk wrote:

I would second MeatChicken's suggestion for Verizon to offer a "Power Save" option that can be enabled.  Better yet, the recording of live TV should stop when the box is powered off all the time, especially since this would seem to be Motorola's intent and default configuration.  I would also want Verizon to confirm that there is nothing else needlessly drawing power when the DVR is not turned on (IE: perhaps the tuners shouldn't need to be powered unless a program is being recorded)


I disagree with the statement I highlighted. My Motorola User Guide for the QIP6416 (521696-001 rev B dated 7/05) very clearly says "Please note the hard drive will stay on even when the set-top is turned off."

And I disagree with MeatChicken's suggestion: if Verizon/Motorola offered that option, some people would use it, and then they would miss a recording, and always blame Verizon,and there would be even more complaining here than there is now. Far better IMHO to just leave it like it is for the existing millions of STBs out there, and focus on being greener in the next generation of boxes.

__________________________________
Justin
Verizon FiOS TV, Internet, and phone
IMG 1.6.0, Build 06.89
Keller, TX


 You misunderstand the original post.  If the suggested power save option was "on" , no one would miss a recording.  The proposed setting would simply stop the drive circuits & gears from constantly recording & spinning for no reason when you shut the box off, but when a scheduled recording time arrives, the drive & tuner would "wake up" & record as it always does.  Your microwave, for example, if it has a timer function, doesn't need to spin the platter all day if a cooking time is set to start 5 hours from now. The drive & tuner should be able to "go to sleep, rather than spin & record at "full blast", using excessive power, when the box is shut off. This would have nothing to do with anyone "missing recordings" as you seem to have suggested. Weather this sort of option can be enabled or added into  in the firmware I don't know, but as other posters have mentioned, everything from VCR's to clock radios have been able to have timers that put the main circuits to "sleep" , so it would seem do-able.

Message Edited by MeatChicken on 01-01-2009 10:46 AM
Message Edited by MeatChicken on 01-01-2009 10:47 AM
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Re: FiOS Energy Consumption - Energy Star?
tsk
Enthusiast - Level 3

@Justin wrote:

I am pretty sure it is a Motorola issue, not Verizon. When the QIP6416 was first delivered by Verizon for FiOS, it had the Interactive Programming Guide (IPG), not the IMG of today. The IPG was supposedly written by Microsoft, definitely not by Verizon. 


That doesn't really mean much.  Pretty much everything is controlled by firmware so the only question would be whether the relevant parts of the firmware can be changed or not.  Recording live TV when the box should otherwise be off was very possibly (likely?) an intentional choice, and the author of the software/firmware does not necesarily have much relevance here - it would be up to whomever drafted the requirements which may or may not have been the original author.  Most likely it was a marketing department at one of the relevant companies involved (Verizon, Motorola, Microsoft, ???).

As an EE that works in a related field I don't assume that it would take a physical replacement of the boxes to address this, and that it likely could be addressed by firmware.  There are many that still don't believe that firmware could be responsible for picture quality (in other forums and not related to these boxes, but other STBs and DVRs), but yet we have a perfect example of how that simply is not the case here with these boxes.  Similarly, I wouldn't assume that a feature like this could not be addressed by firmware and based on that I've expressed my interest in hearing of options and perhaps other's thoughts.  It is possible that the code required to address this would not fit within the available memory, or there could be additional constraints that would make this otherwise not feasible.  However this is not something I could even guess about, and so wouldn't make any assumptions about either - I express my opinions on what I'd like to see without pre-judging whether it is possible or not since that is up to Verizon to determine.  If we never provide feedback simply because we assume something isn't possible then we will forever be stuck with mediocre products that don't provide features we want, and do provide features we don't want.  It never hurts to ask. Smiley Very Happy

This was in response to the original poster that similarly had a concern over an apparent household power consumption increase after switching to FiOS.  These DVRs are clearly a considerable source of energy waste, especially in a time when so many are focused on replacing incandesent lamps with flourescent (and others) just to save a little energy while those devices are on for their fraction of a day.

I would agree that if it took a physical swapout of boxes that likely wouldn't happen, but perhaps the next DVR introduced by Verizon for new deployments could take this into account.  If it is addressable via firmware update, then perhaps this would be a worthwhile (valuable) option for existing deployments.  After all, how many of us really would use the ability to rewind back into a limited window (15 minutes for HD?) while the box was turned off?  This would be assuming that the box was tuned to the right channel (of the hundreds available) while it was off in the first place. . .

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