08-11-2010 07:33 AM
While it may seem like it to you ... I don't think Verizon is intentionally slowing down lines. That would indeed be illegal.
If you understand DSL, then you know that it is a distance sensitive and electronic environment sensitive technology. Your phyiscal distance affects the speed at which the head end can transmit to you and external factors outside of Verizon's control include the weather, wire quality, other nearby interference, etc. can all affect the speed obtainable.
When Verizon markets the service, they do a line quality test and figure out which service tier you can be provisioned on and then figure out the maximum speed on that tier which you will be able to obtain. The service is "up to 7.5mbs", but the reality is that most people will find themselves with 3.0mbs or less because of the distance and line quality. Fact of life and a function of technology. They should disclose this information to you as part of the install/setup when you have the option to say "thanks, but no thanks" and I believe they do.
Over time, conditions change -- so while you may be getting 3.0mbs today, tomorrow the power company may decide to put an electronically "noisy" transformer right near your lines and as a result your effective speed drops to 2.0mbs. Verizon can't "fix" that. It's situations like this which are why DSL is not where companies are focusing their technology improvements.
Now ... what did Verizon try to do? Well, they recommended a service (FiOS) on which they are focusing their technology and which is immune to the noise type of problems you are experiencing and is distance insensitive. They can deliver it at a reasonable cost and you get a more reliable connection. Seems to make sense to me.
I hear you, but there's a pretty wide line between a "service problem" and "intentional fraud". And I'm going to give Verizon the benefit of the doubt here.
As for your finanacial circumstances ... sorry can't help you there. I will say however that if Verizon is looking for a deposit for some reason, then the cable company probably will do that same. So, consider your options carefully. If you've been a DSL customer for long time, Verizon has traditionally used that payment history in considering the need for deposit, so perhaps you should point that out to them if it's something you think might actually help your cause.
That said ... this thread was about "Net Nuetrality", not supposed general service degradation of DSL. If you want to discuss peoples experiences with overall throughput on DSL, I would suggest you open up another topic just so we keep things sorted out for folks. It would be interesting to hear what others are experiencing.
08-11-2010 10:12 AM
You are indeed right, lasagna, about the distance issue with copper lines as opposed to optical/fiber and I had that in mind when researching the issue,so I searched for the location of my CO which happens to be not only less than a mile away, but if not for a few tress, I could probably see it if I squinted real tight. lol. I've had a few conversations with another person with Verizon (I will not say which office, department, or anything else that could get said person in trouble) who said some things that both verify that they are doing things with DSL accounts and also stated why they are doing these things. In a nutshell, if you have a product that is new and you would like your customers to switch to this great new product, a tactic you could use is to make the older product less appealing, and when the customer calls in to complain, you apologize for the poor/degrading service and then make your pitch for the switch to the new, "better, faster, newer!" service. You also have the fact that as of right now, Verizon is paying to maintain 2 technologies. One of which is old, outdated and in almost constant need of repair which is a rather hard hit to the bottom line. Doing away with, or 'abandoning' said old technology seems rather tempting for those wanting to 'trim' the budget so-to-say. Another form of this tactic is when companies quit supporting their older technology so when a customer calls in to complain that they can no longer find help for their product, the rep can then pitch the new one.
Another thing that I was told about (which now that I think about it, I remembered chuckling when the rep started to tell me about this because he started with something along the lines of, "and another thing I hate about what we do to the customers!") is that there is a nifty little tool on the Verizon support website that actually tests the integrity of the copper line from your local CO to the NID. Now, if it finds a problem, like too much noise, etc. all you get is a box with a red 'X' in it and some options on how to troubleshoot a problem on your end. What that red 'X' means, however, is that the test failed and the only fix is for a Verizon technician to come to your home (at no charge to you) and fix the problem. It's funny how anyone that calls for technical support for DSL issues never gets told about this test or are even hinted to the fact that Verizon has to spend money for a tech to come to your home and fix the issue. Of course, not until you have exhausted all of their steps they tell you to take online and then tell you to call support, and then the support rep walks you through the same steps, and then you are transferred to a 'super duper' tech rep who says he/she will help you fix the problem but you have to sign up for premium technical support to the tune of a one year contract and 14.95/month, and then that rep will probably walk you through all of the same troubleshooting steps and then, instead of saying that there may be a problem with the line and they will schedule a technician to come to your home, they tell you that they cannot figure out what the problem is and then begin to tell you how wonderful Fios is. I could tell that the rep that told me this story (and a couple of others which I'll spare you from to save time) has been frustrated for quite a while with Verizon and it's practices. I've even experienced almost everything that he told me about and I have only been a customer for about 2 months. So, from both personal experience and from information received from an inside source, I feel comfortable in saying that Verizon is actively making DSL customers unhappy with their service in order to get them to either switch to Fios or go to another ISP in the hopes of lowering their costs in having to maintain their copper line network. Even though it seems very shady it is a plausible business plan that (according to all of the posts in the Verizon forums about slow/terrible DSL service (some of which is just now happening to customers who have been Verizon DSL customers for years and have had excellent service up until now)) seems to be working in their favor. Notice how I just mentioned that this is happening to customers who have been with Verizon DSL for some time with no problems? I don't think that their CO has gotten any further from their homes and if weather, wire quality, etc. were the culprits, it would have degraded slowly over time, not all of a sudden. New equipment from other companies (power companies, etc.) in the area would, however, cause service to degrade suddenly so that would be something that the person would have to research when determining the cause of their service degradation and none of that has happened in the distance between my home and my CO (remember....it's just a hop, skip and a.....well, you know! lol) for a while and certainly is not the cause of my service woes. I also don't recall any new junk yards with those big cranes with the electro-magnets popping up anywhere nearby which gets rid of any thoughts of stray electro-magnetic interference as being the cause of the slow down. I also don't recall any UFOs landing in the immdiate area either. I mentioned those in case anyone was thinking of them also.
Now, as I stated in my original post, after I had signed up for the 7.5MBps plan and then later discovered the drastic difference to that and what I was receiving, and after many hours going through all of the troubleshooting steps over and over with each rep and then finally finding, by myself, the online tool that tests the quality of the line between the CO and the NID, my local CO told me at first that they could not provide me with service faster than 1.2MBps and later that was reduced to 950kbps. As you yourself stated, lasagna, Verizon would have done "....a line quality test and figure(d) out which service tier you can be provisioned on and then figure out the maximum speed on the tier which you will be able to obtain....". Why would anyone choose the 7.5MBps plan if the sales rep had said to them that the plan was "up to" 7.5MBps but we know that we can only provide you with up to 1.2MBps, no wait, 950kbps? So no, I was not told about that "Fact of life and (a) function of technology.", and if I never had called in and told them that I had used that tool and demanded a service call, I would not have been put in touch with the person at the CO, thus never had found out about them not being able to provide the 'up to' 7.5MBps service and I would to this day (and probably for many years) would be paying 47.95/month for 950kbps throughput!
Now, I know that there is such a thing as brand loyalty and I'll admit that there are a few companies that I'll also defend to the death even at the expense of appearing to be an employee of that company thus taking away all attempts at trying to make people think I'm merely just a customer who loves the product. However, Verizon is not one of those companies for me. And I hope that after reading this, and the misplaced post (thank you for pointing that out and for kindly putting me in my place by telling me to take my gripe elsewhere) that they will also not consider Verizon as a company that they would not defend.
Anyway, thank you for letting me know so nicely about the error of my ways. I too wanted to explain my side in a way that was somewhat forceful and yet deceivingly polite so I enlisted the help of a passive aggressive friend whom I rarely spend any time with as he always uses 'yes/but' phrasing and for some reason is always asking me for different names of foods to use as his username on new internet accounts. How irritating!
08-11-2010 11:12 AM
I'm sorry you misinterpreted my earlier post on this thread as telling you to go elsewhere. My suggestion was merely that we refocus this thread on it's original intent which was the Net Neutrality discussion and open a new one with your observation that the service seems to be degrading and seeking others experiences with service so an indepth discussion on that topic could take place separately. Indeed if many others are finding the same experience, it would cause one to question what might be occurring. If not however, it would seem to be something specifically related to your installation (either a fault or one of the many factors I cited previously which are outside of Verizon's control -- issues which outline exactly why I hate DSL and am glad I live in an area where both Cable an FiOS are available as choices).
You are entitled to your perceptions -- I am merely stating an industry and regulatory view of why that would be an issue if indeed they were intentionally degrading service outside the limits as provided in the service level agreement. You solicited opinion, I am providing my view as requested.
The point is moot really as neither of us can "fix" that issue. We are after all, both just customers -- albeit perhaps at different ends of the customer satisfaction spectrum at the moment.
08-11-2010 04:13 PM
Since Verizon is selectively installing FIOS most os us need to deal with dsl or cable. I am in the second largest city in MA and FIOS has not been available because of the population density and cost for Verizon to install lines. Locally theyt wire the easiest locals which usually have the lowest density. Cable here is no bargain relative to customer service so DSL is what remains.
12-30-2017 03:16 AM
Really?!, It seems as if you are aware of what is actually happening and the STATED goals of the cable companies. The question you should address is: What are you getting in return for selling out?
Internet neutrality has been stripped and in it's place we are supposed to TRUST our cable company to NOT hold our access hostage for more money .... are you naive enough to believe that cable companies will not take advantage of multiplying their revenue by tens or hundreds of times in the interest of "customer service" .... lol?
Worse still, the PTBE's (the powers that be) will now control the CONTENT of EVERYTHING we see ... rather than a search engine returning the most pertenent information or website, it will now return the most commercialized. It is not the end of the "world" as we know it .... only the digital world.
12-30-2017 03:22 AM
"You are entitled to your perceptions -- I am merely stating an industry and regulatory view of why that would be an issue if indeed they were intentionally degrading service outside the limits as provided in the service level agreement."
They can change service agreements at any time to suit whatever adgenda they choose .... AT ANY TIME ... that is part of the "service" agreement. There are NOW .... NO LIMITS. That was the point to the exercise.
12-30-2017 08:19 AM
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