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Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

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FlyerQ
Nickel Contributor
Nickel Contributor
Posts: 30
Registered: ‎09-18-2012

Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 1 of 16
(4,185 Views)

Netflix asks the questions so frequently asked here.

 

1) When will Verizon be honest about the source of their network congestion

2) Why does Verizon upsell high speed data packages to consumers while preventing them from accessing the most popular content at those speeds (or even acceptable speeds)

3) Why does Verizon prefer misdirection and deception to transparency

 

And answers a question too

 

Q: Who is responsible for poor Netflix performance on Verizon?

A: Verizon.

 

http://qz.com/218798/netflix-to-verizon-no-poor-video-quality-is-actually-your-fault/

 

15 REPLIES 15
Belphanior
Contributor
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Registered: ‎06-10-2014

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 2 of 16
(4,147 Views)

Indeed.  I am ready to cancel my service and move to cable. 

 

Verizon is in the wrong here.  I expect my bandwidth, ALL my bandwidth, to be available whenever I want it for whatever I want, including Netflix.

 

It is on Verizon to fix this mess.  I am not impressed. 

Hubrisnxs
Platinum Contributor III
Platinum Contributor III
Posts: 5,881
Registered: ‎07-22-2009

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 3 of 16
(4,123 Views)

Terms and Conditions Network Management Guide

 

The internet is a complicated place.

 

But Per their TOS they are not throttling, netflix simply has choosen very poorly CDN's to deliver their content.

 


Congestion Management

Verizon Online does not affirmatively manage congestion on the network through mechanisms such as real-time throttling, blocking, or dropping of specific end user traffic. There are no usage caps applicable to Verizon Online's Internet access services.

 

Bandwidth is provided on a per-line (not a per-device) basis. The speed of the service may vary based on network or Internet congestion, your computer configuration, your use of FiOS TV video on demand service (VOD), the condition of your telephone line and the wiring inside your location, among other factors. Your FiOS Internet service and FiOS TV VOD service share capacity on the fiber-optic connection to your home. The capacity available for your FiOS Internet access service may be reduced if you are watching multiple FiOS TV VOD titles simultaneously.

Application-Specific Behavior

Except as noted below with respect to blocking outbound traffic on port 25, Verizon Online does not block or rate-control specific protocols or protocol ports other than for security reasons as set forth below, modify protocol fields in ways not prescribed by the protocol standard, or otherwise inhibit or favor certain applications or classes of applications of traffic on our Internet access service.

 


Netflix is being VERY DISENGENIOUS in their public media stunts.

 

If you want to understand what's going on, then you should take a moment to glance over the following articles to get a better understanding. I'd start filing complaints with Netflix and the BBB personally

 

For a better understanding, Follow industry analyst Dan Rayburn's articles that set the record straight. Or one of the best stories is an informative piece by Maggie Reardon on CNET, which explains what is really going on in more layman's terms

 

 

I find the following Quote from Dan Rayburn to be of particular interest myself.

 


In a little known, but public fact, anyone who is on Comcast or Verizon and using Apple TV to stream Netflix wasn’t having quality problems. The reason for this is that Netflix is using Level 3 and Limelight to stream their content specifically to the Apple TV device. What this shows is that Netflix is the one that decides and controls how they get their content to each device and whether they do it via their own servers or a third party. Netflix decides which third party CDNs to use and when Netflix uses their own CDN, they decide whom to buy transit from, with what capacity, in what locations and how many connections they buy, from the transit provider. Netflix is the one in control of this, not Comcast or any ISP.


 

FlyerQ
Nickel Contributor
Nickel Contributor
Posts: 30
Registered: ‎09-18-2012

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 4 of 16
(4,102 Views)

Hub,

 

Frankly I think you are making this a lot more complicated than it needs to be...  My take.

 

Once upon a time Netflix used to pay CDN's to warehouse data and those CDN's would pay Verizon to transport it.

 

Netflix built there own CDN and offered it for free, Verizon noticed they used to get paid and said no thank you.

 

Verizon said instead use these specific transport companies because we have a comfy relationship with them or we'll underserve your data (through saturation and allowed by TOS) and Netflix said no thank you.

 

Now Verizon denies they're underserving and Netflix tries to pretend giving the CDN away for free is unusually generous.

 

I say "customers are being underserved.  You two made a deal.  Fix it."

 

Hubrisnxs
Platinum Contributor III
Platinum Contributor III
Posts: 5,881
Registered: ‎07-22-2009

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 5 of 16
(4,098 Views)

That's why I encourage you to read the articles,   That isn't what happened at all.

 

 

There's a lot of misinformation going around.

FlyerQ
Nickel Contributor
Nickel Contributor
Posts: 30
Registered: ‎09-18-2012

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 6 of 16
(4,094 Views)

I did too and summarized them perfectly.

 

To quote (replace Comcast with Verizon since your links all deal with comcast) in choosing their own route Netflix is demanding capital investment from Verizon they are unprepared to make (at the cost of poor netflix performance).

 

"In other words, Netflix is attaching a fire hose to the Comcast network, which is only equipped to handle connections the size of garden hoses. "

 

While Netflix argues regading their CDN

 

"Because it has its own CDN, Netflix doesn't need to rely on anyone else to deliver its video. What's more, the company believes that if it eliminates these other network hops between its servers and the home video subscriber, it can deliver the video faster and at a higher quality.

 

But Netflix has argued that the improvements in the quality of the video streaming to the broadband providers' customers is so valuable that broadband providers should not charge for the imbalance of traffic on their networks. After all, their customers are benefiting from the direct connection between Netflix and the broadband provider."

 

Which brings me back to both companies are acting on a spectrum between deception and lying.

 

The customer is losing. Please fix it.

 

Hubrisnxs
Platinum Contributor III
Platinum Contributor III
Posts: 5,881
Registered: ‎07-22-2009

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 7 of 16
(4,085 Views)

Except for the fact that regardless of any of the 3 methods Netflix has to Deliver content, there are charges and fee's associated with each.

 

Why are they entitled to free bandwidth on demand or free co-location services, both are established services that have been around since the internet was born and both cost money? 

 

 Balanced Peering is exactly that.   If they are not using balanced peering then they should pay an interconnection fee which they always have, and every other company in the world (including microsoft and google) have and use.

 

bbinnard
Bronze Contributor II
Bronze Contributor II
Posts: 169
Registered: ‎07-27-2011

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 8 of 16
(4,060 Views)

The nit-picking and bickering about Netflix & Verizon is getting boring.  Let's focus on the facts:

 

1. We pay Netflix to provide the content we want.  Netflix is doing this.

 

2. We pay Verizon to deliver our content at the quality we want.  Verizon is not doing this.

 

Verizon needs to fix their delivery system (regardless of how convoluted or complex it may be) so we get what we are paying for.  The fact that Verizon's TOS says they really don't have to deliver what we are paying for and what they say they will deliver does not change the fact that they are under-serving their customers.

 

Perhaps we should underserve Verizon by delaying or reducing our monthly payments.

FlyerQ
Nickel Contributor
Nickel Contributor
Posts: 30
Registered: ‎09-18-2012

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 9 of 16
(4,037 Views)

It really isn't as simple as Netflix is right and Verizon is wrong.

 

Netflix is deliberately running a disruptive business model to reshape the relationship between large content providers and last mile ISPs.  Their position is simple, they are (bit for bit) the most desired consumer internet service and that desire drives broadband subscriptions creating value for firms like Verizon. This value, they assert, should in and of itself be sufficient for last mile ISPs to provide transit.

 

On the other hand Verizon wants to preserve an entrenched oligopoly based on business practices and relationships developed over the past decade that generates material revenue from the delivery of content to subscribers. They assert that free transport only makes sense when the quantity of data you transport for Verizon is equal to the quantity of data Verizon transports for you.

 

Both of these arguments have merit and my personal opinion is the answer lies in the middle. Regardless, sometimes disruptive business models fuel innovation, lower costs, and benefit consumers and sometimes they fail.

 

My problem is that neither company is openly having the conversation, instead using deceptive and misleading public communications. While this may not be surprising given whatever deals are struck will likely represent a new and prolonged status quo this power struggle leaves customers of both companies unable to attain the service they have paid to receive.

 

 

VUser50
Bronze Contributor II
Bronze Contributor II
Posts: 119
Registered: ‎09-12-2013

Re: Netflix responds to Verizon's absurd cease and desist

Message 10 of 16
(4,023 Views)

@FlyerQ wrote:

Both of these arguments have merit and my personal opinion is the answer lies in the middle. Regardless, sometimes disruptive business models fuel innovation, lower costs, and benefit consumers and sometimes they fail.

 

My problem is that neither company is openly having the conversation, instead using deceptive and misleading public communications. While this may not be surprising given whatever deals are struck will likely represent a new and prolonged status quo this power struggle leaves customers of both companies unable to attain the service they have paid to receive.

 


Good explanation. I think it is worth adding why I (and a lot of the tech community) tend to sympathize with Netflix besides the fact that we like disruption.

 

  • ISPs have teneded to treat customers poorlly. I think this is a bit overblown and affected by previous trama sometimes since a lot of people for 99% of the year have no problems. Still ISPs aren't renowned for being customer friendly. Netflix has the opposite reputation.
  • Even if the debate was more honest, pricing appropiate network infastucture costs for a given amound of traffic will be messy and hard for the consumer to work out what is fair/ appropiately apply pressure. One direction pricing tends to be much more transparent and I think there are other ways to charge heavier users more. (tiers, or dare I even say it, reasonibly priced metetered charging)
  • ISPs have a monopololy or duopoloy in many markets meaning in any fight between the two companies won't be fair. 
  • ISPs have their hand in the video buisness while Netflix is singularly focused (for now) meaning they have more motive to behave badly. Netflix wouldn't want to totally destroy ISPs since they need them, ISPs would totally be fine with Netflix dying.
  • This has similarities to the overall Net Neutrality debate and people are anxious about cedeing ground.

 

I'm also curious if as cloud computing prolifierates if we see a future Verizon change tune quite a bit as they deliver more upstream content. Even if Netflix doesn't act on its threat to use peering as a delivery method, a future company surely will. I don't see Verizon eagar to pay those fees. (actually they might hapily just let those connections saturate if it is a competing service and accept the blame/responsibility but prefer it to the competition) 

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